Opinions: d20 3rd ed.

[Sigmund]

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Actually. that explanation makes a whole lot more sense to me than your previous. Also, I can and do describe the removal of level limits as an improvement, but it should be read into that statement that it's an improvement to me, based on how I envision my game playing out, not objectively better. I understand about the different games, and how games were played, my first experience was with 0e although I didn't own a version until Holmes basic. I don't dislike level limits because of anything to do with fantasy novels or the real world, they just don't make sense to me. I can find other ways to challenge players besides imposing meta-game restrictions on them, and I can, and very well might again, run games that contain no demi-human PCs at all. I've played wargames (I was into the hex/chit deals for awhile, with War of the Rings being my biggest game), although they were never my first love gamewise. It's just, for RPGs, I like my rules to make sense to me... not make sense in the "real world" way, or to imitate fiction of any kind, just for me to understand how they can make the experience of the game enjoyable for me and those I game with, and level limits never did that for us. The odd thing is, level limits or not, I often prefer to play humans anyway. *shrug*

[Stonewolf]

Are we talking about Glen Cook's Black Company? Do you have an issue number for this Dragon?

I think it was Dragon issue 89. Looks like I took Mr. Gygax out of context though, his article for that issue rambled into 3 different topics all under the heading of "More Class for Demi Humans" Sorry about that...

[Nellisir]

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Actually. that explanation makes a whole lot more sense to me than your previous. Also, I can and do describe the removal of level limits as an improvement, but it should be read into that statement that it's an improvement to me, based on how I envision my game playing out, not objectively better.

Agreed, more or less. This answer is better than the previous one. I -don't- have a wargaming background (or foreground, or any kind of ground...I've pretty much been AD&D+ all the way...and checkers. I like checkers.)

[Nellisir]

I think it was Dragon issue 89. Looks like I took Mr. Gygax out of context though, his article for that issue rambled into 3 different topics all under the heading of "More Class for Demi Humans" Sorry about that...

Ah, found it. #96. Good old Dragon archives.

[Telecanter]

I guess I don't really understand the mystery of level limits.

If a dwarf fighter is identical to a human fighter with additional bonuses, playing it as a game, you would either be illogical to play a human fighter or trying to challenge yourself by playing something weaker than what everyone else was playing.

It seems exactly analogous to weapons in the rules; if you don't differentiate weapons with advantages and disadvantages, everyone uses swords-- unless they purposefully choose to challenge themselves "Haha, I got to 5th level with only a dagger!"

Now you can argue that level limits are inefficient or ineffective at trying to balance the bonuses demihumans get, but I certainly remember carefully weighing those limits as a teen rolling up gnomish thieves.

I suppose the question I'd pose: if you don't use level limits, what ways do you use in-game to encourage people playing humans. Or am I more gamist than most players, is everyone playing humans because that's what they imagine the character they want to play to be?

[Bandigerbolls]

I suppose the question I'd pose: if you don't use level limits, what ways do you use in-game to encourage people playing humans. Or am I more gamist than most players, is everyone playing humans because that's what they imagine the character they want to play to be?

I believe players should pay some price for their darkvision and saving throw bonuses, but it should be a proportional price, and not one that throws their characters out of the game. In the past I've tried:

A) Capping power advancement, but allowing a nominal level advancement (with only a few complimentary hit points per level).
B) More difficult XP level advancement tables.

In the future, I'll probably try:

C) Customized classes for demihumans that taper off gradually in power advancement. Eg, if your character's race is halfling, your only class choice is halfling. Dwarfs will be a custom fighter class, Elves a fighter-MU hybrid class, and halflings a unique class with stealth skills. These characters will be more powerful than humans at low levels, and even gain levels at the same rate. Their power gain per level will be smaller than for humans, however.

[Sigmund]

I never recall in the past thinking too much about advantages or disadvantages. I played whatever race/class combo I envisioned in my character concept, without consideration of the mechanics. I do, however, recognize the min/max aspect of racial bonuses, and would most likely either include setting specific cultural "limits" on the number of demihumans in the world (and hence in the party), or run human only campaigns. I'm also looking at creating a simple template system that would replace races as presented with racial and cultural templates, perhaps similar to the backgrounds system Akrasia has posted. This way I could include campaign specific cultures for both humans and demihumans that would give certain bonuses/abilities to all characters. I've even considered using a similar system to make what in other games are classes like the thief. In my theoretical system, any of the three classes could then be a thief, or a holy champion (paladin), survivalist(ranger), etc. You could make a wizardly thief, or a cleric that is good at surviving in the wilderness, or scholarly fighting man, etc.

[Spike]

Mind you I'm one of those who started with 2.0, went to 3.0..then to 3.5 kicking and screaming..and finally found 0e last winter, but here's my take on 3rd.

The real improvements over 0e are:
1) Class and race are two different things - I like diversity
2) More low-level spells for magic users - being a 1st level Oe cleric can be a bit frustrating
3) Chance to improve abilities - being able to upgrade something besides HP, AC and "to hit" makes character-advancement more interesting.
4) Ascending AC - ...umm.. y'all don't get me started on that again.

Stuff that in retrospect seems like a bad idea:
1) Skills - too darn many, too much to keep up with, and improvements earned rather arbitrarily
2) Feats - ditto
3) Op Attacks - not saying I think they should never happen, but are ALL those rules really necessary for what ought to be GM's decision?
4) Prestige Classes - I"m sorry, but with all those silly prerequisites and so-called character-builds and paths and whatnot, making a prestige class character is a bit too much like planning for your college major from the day you enter kindergarten. Thanks, but no thanks.

The single biggest selling-point for Oe that I can fault 3e for forsaking is simplified character creation and leveling.

As for leveling up in general, I think having multi-level parties and differing scales for advancing is a good thing BUT to add my own flask of oil to the demi-human level-limit debate, I suppose both sides have their points, but it seems like an issue that could be more easily handled by making demi-humans have to earn more XP to advance than by simply throwing an arbitrary glass ceiling over their heads.

And the other nice thing about 0e...it's MY game and I can play it however I wanna play it..so ..NYAH!

[Telecanter]

I should make it clear that I don't think level limits are an elegant or even good solution to additional Demihuman powers. I think making the XP point climb much steeper could be a solution, but I wonder if a party would end up with a large difference in character level.

I don't know a simple, "clean" solution. Maybe disadvantages as well as advantages, that's basically how classes are handled; clerics get spells but no sharps, etc. Maybe dwarves get their delving abilities but a minus to dex, or a higher chance of getting lost in the great outdoors.

[Sigmund]

I should make it clear that I don't think level limits are an elegant or even good solution to additional Demihuman powers. I think making the XP point climb much steeper could be a solution, but I wonder if a party would end up with a large difference in character level.

I don't know a simple, "clean" solution. Maybe disadvantages as well as advantages, that's basically how classes are handled; clerics get spells but no sharps, etc. Maybe dwarves get their delving abilities but a minus to dex, or a higher chance of getting lost in the great outdoors.

I agree